Welcome old members - to the new forum!

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Welcome old members - to the new forum!

Post by pat »

Although this is far from the only reason to convert to this new software, one of the issues is <i>liability</i>. Seems strange, but here's the scoop: Chip and Steve traded several emails. I can't tell you how happy we are to have Steve's expertise in kayaking <i>and</i> organization. One of the issues he raised is that in this litigious society we live in, Chip and I should think about ensuring that:<ol><li>People understand and agree that we are <i>not</i> liable for any accidents that may occur on any of our "organized" trips.</li><li>People understand and accept their paddling limitations and know what they're getting into when they go on one of these trips.</i></ol>In an attempt to ensure this, I believe that it's important that anyone who comes on one of these trips must agree to a disclaimer/waiver that is currently part of the registration form to be a member of this forum. What we are going to do is to have <i>two</i> forums. This one, which will contain general discussion and a history of past trips, and a private forum, available to all registered members, where we can discuss upcoming trips.

Here's how it will work. There will be this private forum "Upcoming trips" where we can plan... er... upcoming trips, curiously enough. Once a trip has passed, I'll move that topic to the public General Discussion forum.

The purpose of this is that we don't want lurkers, who have not registered and agreed to the disclaimer/waiver, showing up for our trips unannounced. This is hardly a complete solution to the issue, but I think it's a good start.
Last edited by pat on Wed Jun 22, 2005 12:20 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by NorwayLady »

Hi guys.

I'm here!

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Hi Everyone

Post by Birdseye »

I'm on board.

Still miss the other board a little though.

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Re: Hi Everyone

Post by pat »

Birdseye wrote:Still miss the other board a little though.


I know. Trust me - it was a painful decision, but a necessary one. And it was one of those deals where every minute I delayed the inevitable, there was that much more great information that would be posted on the old one and left behind.
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Post by Chip »

Hey Pat, your tsunami looks bigger than 100x100megapixels. What gives?
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Post by Birdseye »

Yeah,
How'd you get that on there? Mine's not showing up.
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Post by Birdseye »

Never mind! :lol:
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Post by Dave »

Wooohooo! I'm in!

Never could figure out how to put a pic of my boat in my sig, how do you do that?
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Post by pat »

Dave: "Never could figure out how to put a pic of my boat in my sig, how do you do that?"

In your profile (link at top of page), there is an area for your signature. In that box, enter something like this:

[img]http://www.somedomain.com/someplace/mykayak.gif[/img]
Last edited by pat on Wed Jun 22, 2005 12:58 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by getnoutside »

I've copied over a few of the post from the old forum to here. I focused on posts that I thought were still relevant. However, I'm sure I missed a bunch of stuff (and I'm not above just moving stuff I'm personally interested in :twisted: ), so you may want to check for yourself.
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Post by pat »

Chip wrote:Hey Pat, your tsunami looks bigger than 100x100megapixels. What gives?


The 100x100 limitation is for avatars (images under your name). There is currently no way for me to limit the size of images in the signature. This is an ongoing problem for me in the Marshfield Forum where school kids continually post these monstrous images in the sigs.
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Post by pat »

get'n-outside wrote:I've copied over a few of the post from the old forum to here. I focused on posts that I thought were still relevant. However, I'm sure I missed a bunch of stuff (and I'm not above just moving stuff I'm personally interested in :twisted: ), so you may want to check for yourself.


Thanks Steve - getting us off to a good start in the new digs. I think if people have stuff they've posted that they feel is still worthy of ongoing conversation, they can migrate it over. It'll just be painful for a few days.
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Post by Todd »

I'm in also. I'm away from the office and I set up my new registration, so I didn't understand why I couldn't log in until I checked my mail via the internet.

By the way, did I ever mention that I get a kick out of you guys. My boss really hates that you are really funny sometimes.
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Post by Chip »

Finally got my boat in too. Not pretty but what do you expect from a hack. (don't respond) 8)
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Post by Birdseye »

Testing Avatar
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Post by Birdseye »

Not yet?
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Post by Chip »

i don't think you have to repost each time you play with it. It should update all of your posts
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Had a bit of a problem registering using IE from work!

Post by chpaton »

So I deployed my unauthorized "stealth" browser (Firefox) and everything went according to plan (obviously, I'm here!).

I understand the concern about liability, so keeping the trip planning section open to registered members only is a good idea.

I've seen some liability "waiver" language used by other paddling organizations on the web - I'll make a point of digging it up again and posting it so you can see if it would be appropriate for use here.
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Post by pat »

Birdseye wrote:Not yet?


I'm juggling about 20 things right now, so I'll try to help you when I get a minute.
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Post by Birdseye »

I'm juggling about 20 things right now, so I'll try to help you when I get a minute.


No problem Pat. I'm in no hurry, just thought I'd see if it worked. I tried both ways by uploading and pointing to a pic on my webspace but it didn't seem to take. Maybe something's not turned on.

Don't worry abou it.

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Post by BobV »

re: Waiver forms.

Take a look at http://www.amcsem.org/pdf/waiverform.pdf if you are interested in what the AMC (Appalachian Mountain Club), and our lawyers, came up with (after years of haggling over language)

It is in current use for all AMC trips, including AMC paddle trips.

It was a compromise. The laywers wanted more pages of legalise, the leaders insisted on a one page form with room for 10 people to sign up :-)

My feeling is, as I told my AMC hikers last evening, "If you get hurt you have my sympathy, but you can't have my house." :-)

If someone gets hurt you can get sued (with or without the waiver.) With the waiver you are in a better position to convince them not to waste their time & money suing And in a better position to win if they do sue.)

It really isn't inconvenient, as you should collect contact info for all the paddlers (Who do you call if someone passes out? Get a number, and you'll know who to call.)
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Charter

Post by Dave »

It really stinks sometimes, this litigious culture. I am sure that a lot of you have plenty of experience with organizations like AMC and such. I don't really know a lot about non-for-profits, but I deal with the for profit kind a lot. Does Wild Turkey Paddlers have a charter. Corporations always start with a charter and by-laws and such, they create a legal entity and shield the individuals from liability. Is this how it works with non-for-profits? I think the folks who started this group, most of whom I haven't met yet, have done a real nice thing and it's a shame that they have to worry about this sort of crap, but I guess you can't bury your head in the sand. Aside from the waivers, has the organization any legal standing? I apologize if I sound ignorant and you have already dealt with this sort of stuff. But it seems like the first step would be to create a recognized non-for-profit organization that was a legal entity, that would be the first line of protection from liability for the individuals who started it, wouldn't it? Then the waiver and such would protect the organization, (and the individuals associated with it.) But if that hasn't been done, and the organization has no legal standing, it would be easier for sue happy jerks to go after individuals. Like I said, I apologize if my questions are ignorant and this sort of thing has been taken care of already. I realize I'm a new and all, I'm only concerned that the folks who provided this great site are protected and secure. It would be wonderful if a lawyer or two joined up to help out. I realize that this sort of legal work might cost some money, and certainly I wouldn't expect anyone to have to pick up the tab. If that ever becomes an issue, I hope you'll give us folks who benefit from this site an opportunity to help out.

I think this is a great site, and I really enjoyed the meeting and paddling with you, I'm looking forward to many other fun trips. It's to bad that something as simple as a group of people who want to paddle together have to take such precautions.
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Post by Chip »

Wild Turkey Paddlers is merely a website to help people who paddle in eastern Mass get together. We really are not an entity or organization, at this time anyway. I have no idea what that means legally, but I do know we do not have a charter and are not a legal/official non profit.
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Post by Guest »

Well, as I said, I'm really ignorant about such things, and I don't want to stir up any anxieties. I just thought I'ld throw that out there. It's likely true that such precautions are totally unecesary for a web site, I have no clue. I certainly think you shouldn't have to worry about charters and by-laws and such, just because you provide a forum.
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Re: Charter

Post by pat »

Oops - I was in such a rush to get the forum set up, I inadvertantly configured it to allow non-members to post. That's fixed now.

Dave wrote:Like I said, I apologize if my questions are ignorant and this sort of thing has been taken care of already. I realize I'm a new and all, I'm only concerned that the folks who provided this great site are protected and secure. It would be wonderful if a lawyer or two joined up to help out. I realize that this sort of legal work might cost some money, and certainly I wouldn't expect anyone to have to pick up the tab. If that ever becomes an issue, I hope you'll give us folks who benefit from this site an opportunity to help out.


Dave, thanks for the input, and I appreciate the opinions.

My personal thoughts on this is that if the day comes that we determine that legal council must be purchased, the website would simply be shut down. A more reasonable middle ground might be that we simply have no "official" WTP trips - they continue to be a simple matter of individuals saying "Hey, let's paddle" and others say "I'm in". It would be sort of a paddling version of "Personal Ads".
<b><pre>SWM seeks SWF 25-50 for flatwater
paddling and moonlight kayak trips on Duxbury bay.
Must have touring kayak or better.
Please enclose photo of kayak.</pre></b>
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Post by Dave »

It would be an ugly can of worms, charters, lawyers, liability insurance . . . ughh, I totally agree with your position, that sort of crap could suck all the fun out of a fun activity, your position is totally reasonable.
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Post by Chip »

I would compare this to PNET. Informational and social. People plan trips on PNET. I wonder what his liability is.
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Re: Risk Acknowledgement

Post by chpaton »

Pat, Chip:

I found the following on the Northshore Paddlers Network (NSPN) website. It is a fairly comprehensive statement about the risks inherent in kayaking (I've edited it slightly to remove specific references to NSPN):

Human beings cannot breathe water! That makes any water sport, such as kayaking, inherently dangerous.

Kayaking can be a wonderfully enjoyable activity and for the most part, it is. But like many things in life, there are risks associated with it that cannot be eliminated other than by not participating. They can be minimized through preparation, which includes equipment, skills and most importantly good judgment. However, none of us are born with these things, so we all have to go through the same learning curve. The principle difference between the weekend pond paddler and the solo expedition adventurist is how far they have progressed on the learning path.

So, what are the risks?
The simple fact is that you could die. While that’s statistically much more likely to happen on the drive to the put-in, it’s still a serious concern. According to US Coast Guard and ACA statistics, there are approximately 12 kayaker deaths in the US per year on average, from various causes. That includes ALL kayakers, recreational, sea kayakers, fishermen, surfers and so on. Considering the number of people splashing around in kayaks, that’s actually a pretty good statistic, but of course, everyone would like to see that number drop to zero.

The following is a list of some of the more common risks associated with kayaking. The intent is not to scare you off the water, but to make you aware of dangers that perhaps you hadn’t thought of so you can take the necessary steps to protect yourself.

Here are some of the more common risks associated with kayaking:

• Drowning – This is probably everyone’s #1 fear, although it’s a relatively rare phenomenon. Drowning deaths are generally caused by some other factor, some of which we’ll discuss below. However, the #1 cause of drowning deaths is failure to wear a Personal Floatation Device (PFD), what used to be called a “Life Vest”.

Wear a Coast Guard approved PFD at all times on the water, NO EXCEPTIONS, NO EXCUSES!

• Hypothermia – This is the single greatest danger we face as paddlers in New England. Except on some small bodies of water in summer, the water temps rarely get high enough for hypothermia not to be a risk. The ocean water never gets warm enough, except in a few shallow bays during hot spells. Even 70 degree water can incapacitate and kill you if you’re in it long enough.

Fortunately, hypothermia is not terribly difficult to protect against. The best course of action is:

Dress for the water, not the air!

Unless you’ve actually experienced it, it’s difficult to understand how rapidly debilitating cold water is. In 40 degree water – which is common in the spring – an unprotected paddler can lose the use of his hands in as little as a couple of minutes! Once that happens, you are no longer able to help yourself and must rely completely on outside assistance. You could live for an hour or more, but you will be helpless and will quickly succumb to hypothermia, loss of consciousness and drowning.

On the other hand, if a paddler is wearing a dry suit and adequate insulating garments underneath (fleece, wool), neoprene boots, a neoprene hood, neoprene or dry gloves, it’s possible to be fully functional in 40 degree water for 30 minutes or more and survival time is measured in hours. Believe it or not, it’s possible to paddle comfortably dressed that way, too!

• Gasp Reflex – Never heard of it? Join the crowd! Believe it or not, this seemingly obscure problem is the probable cause in most mysterious drownings where the victim falls in, goes under and never comes up. The human body has a natural reflex that causes us to gasp uncontrollably when our head, neck and chest are suddenly immersed in cold water. Think about that for a minute. You hit the water and go under, your body reacts by making you gasp, you suck in a lungful of water and it’s all over. Just like that. Worse yet, gasp reflex is actually at its strongest at water temps of ~60 degrees, just when most people are starting to think the water is safe.

While it’s possible to minimize the effect of gasp reflex through specialized training, the more practical solution for most of us is the same as for hypothermia: dress for the water temperature.

• Trauma from collision injuries – Most people probably think of getting hit by power boats or jet skis, but this can happen from hitting your head on rocks, slips and falls on shore, getting tumbled in surf, being hit by another kayak or anything else that causes a forcible impact with a hard object. Wear protective gear, such as a helmet, where conditions indicate. Be careful!

• Encounters with dangerous or aggressive wildlife – While everyone’s first instinct is to think “SHARKS!”, shark attacks on kayakers are very rare, especially in the Northeast. Of greater concern are stinging animals such as jellyfish and aggressive sea birds during nesting season. Although seals are cute and cuddly looking, they are large, powerful animals that can be very dangerous if provoked or even if they become physically “playful”. It’s best to avoid close encounters with wildlife. Many species are protected by the Marine Mammal Protection Act and other laws which make it illegal to approach them or their habitat.

On shore, poison ivy and thorny plants of various types are often present. Learn to recognize and avoid them.

• Slip and fall injuries – Wet, seaweed-covered rocks are a hazard at many put-ins. Lugging a heavy kayak across them is dangerous. Paved boat ramps can be very slick, too. Choose your put-in and take-out points carefully to reduce these risks.

• Surf – Launching and landing through surf, or assisting others to do so, can be quite dangerous. Learn the proper techniques before attempting surf launches or landings.

• Sun, Heat and Dehydration – These factors are often interrelated. It’s easy to forget that you may to be out on the water for several hours, exposed to the full effects of the sun. Reflections off the water allow the sun to hit parts of your body that it normally wouldn’t. Use sunscreen.

There are few nicer places to be on a hot summer day than out on the water, but exposure to the sun and exertion can cause you to perspire and dehydrate. Dehydration reduces your ability to paddle and can turn a beautiful trip into an arduous chore. It’s also a major contributor to heat exhaustion and heat stroke. Keep plenty of fluids within easy reach and make it a point to drink often. It’s better to have to stop for an occasional “nature break”, than to become dehydrated and risk more serious consequences.

This list is by no means comprehensive. Conditions and risks vary with the seasons and from one area to the next, so you should further educate yourself about the specifics of the area(s) you paddle in. It’s also a good idea to take a first aid course – Wilderness First Aid in particular - just in case. Make sure you have reliable means of contacting help, if necessary.

Be aware and prepared


You might want to consider a summarized version of the above along with a statement to the effect that each person who chooses to accompany other folks in an informal trip posted on this board has read and acknowledges the risks involved and that s/he is responsible for his/her safety while participating in the informal trip as part of the formal acknowledgement required to become a registered member.
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Post by Dave »

I think you might want to consider revising the mission statement on the home page. Look at PNet's home page, they have a description of what it is about. You might want to remove references to Wild Turkey as an "organization," even informal, and to remove references to "members," and just refer to it as a resource page. PNet is also a .net, not a .org. I think that refering to this as an online resource for paddlers and not a paddling organization or group might be a good move.

Any sort of waiver of liability might be construed as implicit recognition that you had liability to begin with. It might be best to just let it be.
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Post by Chip »

Dave,
I re-wrote the mission statement to omit 'organization' and 'members' and 'training'. Pat hasn't had a chance to change it yet. I agree, the resource page is the way to go.
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Post by Dave »

Excellent, let us never speak of this again. So much more fun to talk about kayaking! 8)

(btw, I made it completely clear that I am complete ignoramous and have absolutley no legal training, right? I have to do that several times a day at work.)
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Post by Chip »

I agree. Paddling is much more fun. Hopefully we are overreacting and it is a non issue.
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Post by pat »

Chip wrote:Dave,
I re-wrote the mission statement to omit 'organization' and 'members' and 'training'. Pat hasn't had a chance to change it yet. I agree, the resource page is the way to go.


Ok - that's done.
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