I was curious what most folks used if anything on their ocean kayaks. I like the idea of the skug to help you track straighter, while I am not entirely sold on the idea of the ruddler. and I was curious what difference it makes without any aids.
like to hear your thoughts?
~steve
Skeg, Rudder, Zilch?
Moderator: Chip
Steve: I would say that it is somewhat boat-dependent and somewhat a matter of personal preference/paddling approach. My first sea kayak did not have a skeg or rudder, so I learned how to paddle without these aids. But, there were days when I felt like I just paddled on one side of the boat for hours on end. Now I have a boat with a skeg but I almost never use it. (I use it when I am feeling lazy and don't want to work using corrective strokes to stay a course.)
Note that a rudder is designed to assist in turning the boat, and a skeg to assist with tracking (and will in fact hamper turning). I personally feel that kayaks don't need rudders, although on heavily-loaded 20-plus foot long tandems they are nice to have. However, some boats will not track well in weather without a skeg. It makes life easier to use one.
Just my two cents, as they say.
Mark
Note that a rudder is designed to assist in turning the boat, and a skeg to assist with tracking (and will in fact hamper turning). I personally feel that kayaks don't need rudders, although on heavily-loaded 20-plus foot long tandems they are nice to have. However, some boats will not track well in weather without a skeg. It makes life easier to use one.
Just my two cents, as they say.
Mark
Thanks
First let me say that i do appreaciate your two cents and you are more than welcome to take four cents if you'd like!
I am thinking about in vesting in a longer ocean kayak so any information, suggestions, feedback, is welcomed. I really dont know too much about doing some longer open ocean paddles. However, the idea of paddling out to one of the harbor islands and camping overnight or even just stopping for a long lunch break is WICKED cool and even a little romantic (in a gordon's fisherman kinda way)
I'd even be open to hear suggestions on boats (most likely used since I have a few yaks already)
just looking to learn from some of the experiences of the "Turkeys" here (meant in a 110% respectful way)
again THANKS MARK!
~steve
I am thinking about in vesting in a longer ocean kayak so any information, suggestions, feedback, is welcomed. I really dont know too much about doing some longer open ocean paddles. However, the idea of paddling out to one of the harbor islands and camping overnight or even just stopping for a long lunch break is WICKED cool and even a little romantic (in a gordon's fisherman kinda way)
I'd even be open to hear suggestions on boats (most likely used since I have a few yaks already)
just looking to learn from some of the experiences of the "Turkeys" here (meant in a 110% respectful way)
again THANKS MARK!
~steve
My experience parallels Mark's. The first boat I took on an expedition (not my boat) had a rudder which broke within the first 10 minutes of the trip. I was not impressed. But then, my boat has a skeg, and it was broken after the first few days of use, stayed that way for about 5 years. Then I got it fixed. It was broken by the next day. Eh, what can I say, I wasn't used to having a skeg anymore and forgot it was down when I landed.
Anyway, like Mark, most of the time I paddle without skeg or rudder. For most boats I'd prefer to have a skeg because it's out of the way when you don't need it. There are a few boats though, as Mark points out - very long and very loaded - that need that extra turning help.
Without knowing anything about you it's hard to recommend a boat. But the Tempest 165 or 170 (depending on your size) seems to be very popular and not hard to find, and it's got a lot of room for carrying camping gear (and has a skeg). It's available in plastic or composite. You might start by demoing that one. Charles River Canoe and Kayak in Newton, or Billington Sea in the Plymouth area could get you started with demos.
NK
Anyway, like Mark, most of the time I paddle without skeg or rudder. For most boats I'd prefer to have a skeg because it's out of the way when you don't need it. There are a few boats though, as Mark points out - very long and very loaded - that need that extra turning help.
Without knowing anything about you it's hard to recommend a boat. But the Tempest 165 or 170 (depending on your size) seems to be very popular and not hard to find, and it's got a lot of room for carrying camping gear (and has a skeg). It's available in plastic or composite. You might start by demoing that one. Charles River Canoe and Kayak in Newton, or Billington Sea in the Plymouth area could get you started with demos.
NK
Kate and Mark pretty much have it right.
Only things I might add:
Early on, skegs can be helpful to combat weather cocking, allowing you to concentrate on other stuff. Over time, you end up edging and using strokes to combat weather cocking, and tend to just forget about the skeg, but it helps early on.
I've never used a ruddered kayak, so I can't say - but my impression is that they're not that useful, get in the way or break (or both). Unlike other vessels, you already have a very versatile rudder: the paddle.
Only things I might add:
Early on, skegs can be helpful to combat weather cocking, allowing you to concentrate on other stuff. Over time, you end up edging and using strokes to combat weather cocking, and tend to just forget about the skeg, but it helps early on.
I've never used a ruddered kayak, so I can't say - but my impression is that they're not that useful, get in the way or break (or both). Unlike other vessels, you already have a very versatile rudder: the paddle.
Possunt quia posse viderunt. Virgil Book V, Aeneid. (They can because they think they can)
THANKS!!
Again Thanks for the feedback. Kate, what information about me would be useful in giving me more specific feedback?
I am a sagittarius, great sense of humor, green eyes, and enjoy long walks (and/or paddles) on the beach...that help any? LOL
ooops sorry at times that aforementioned "great" sense of humor doesnt come off that great via electronic means...meant to be silly and get a laugh...anyone laughing?
6ft tall, 170lbs, have been kayaking for 3 years mostly on rivers in the area, my interest has steadily increased in that time. currently have a 13' sun velocity that's great on the rivers and medium sized bays (and a cobra fish n dive that needs a good washing). looking to take the next step, build skills and get out on some of the longer treks with some of the Wild Turkeys here. Eventually like to workup to an overnight/multiday tour to some of the harbor islands, southeastern mass or something in RI.
That's better info yes??
again MUCHO GRACIAS!!! for a newbee all your input is clutch!
~steve/stew
I am a sagittarius, great sense of humor, green eyes, and enjoy long walks (and/or paddles) on the beach...that help any? LOL
ooops sorry at times that aforementioned "great" sense of humor doesnt come off that great via electronic means...meant to be silly and get a laugh...anyone laughing?
6ft tall, 170lbs, have been kayaking for 3 years mostly on rivers in the area, my interest has steadily increased in that time. currently have a 13' sun velocity that's great on the rivers and medium sized bays (and a cobra fish n dive that needs a good washing). looking to take the next step, build skills and get out on some of the longer treks with some of the Wild Turkeys here. Eventually like to workup to an overnight/multiday tour to some of the harbor islands, southeastern mass or something in RI.
That's better info yes??
again MUCHO GRACIAS!!! for a newbee all your input is clutch!
~steve/stew
One thing about ruddered boats - you tend to use the rudder when the conditions are more demanding. When you aren't using the rudder, the pegs are locked up. You can push against them so that you are nice and tight; which makes bracing easier.
So once you drop the rudder(because of wind or swells or ??) and you go to brace and now you aren't as secure in the boat as you were with the rudder stowed. So now bracing becomes more difficult because of the looser connection between you and the boat.(like an ill fitting pair of ski boots)
Some boats do have pedals/pegs for a rudder that still let you brace(I think they work like a gas pedal). But my next boat will have a skeg...
So once you drop the rudder(because of wind or swells or ??) and you go to brace and now you aren't as secure in the boat as you were with the rudder stowed. So now bracing becomes more difficult because of the looser connection between you and the boat.(like an ill fitting pair of ski boots)
Some boats do have pedals/pegs for a rudder that still let you brace(I think they work like a gas pedal). But my next boat will have a skeg...
Rudder, Skeg?
The ideal would be a boat that needs neither, but in the real world....
Keep in mind both are add-ons to assist the paddler in maintaining course in "conditions". A rudder is not intended to be the primary means for steering a kayak, it's intended to be an adjustable trim tab designed to assist a paddler keeping on course by allowing adjustments to counter opposing forces generated by wind and wave.
Given that both are mechanical devices they are subject to failures and breakdowns...that said I have rudders on two of my boats, one has seen seven years of service without problems, the other newer boat two years. Let's just say for the record that I do not baby my boats. However, skegs are simpler and have fewer component parts - less to go wrong!
In my experience the "bracing" issue attributed as a problem related to the sliding footpegs used in some rudder set ups is not a problem of the sliding braces per se, it's more related to improper foot peg set up and general poor boat fit (ie the cockpit fit is too loose). Regardless, as a previous poster stated the availability of "gas pedal" and "toe control" footpegs for rudder installation have rendered this issue moot.
If I were buying a new sea kayak, I'd most likely opt for a factory installed skeg if it were available. If I were modifying a skegless, rudderless boat, I (beacuse of my particular set of skills and tools) would opt for a rudder because that installation would be easier for me than a skeg installation.
As a side note for those of you with a "need for speed" rudders pretty much rule in the kayak racing world.
chpaton
Keep in mind both are add-ons to assist the paddler in maintaining course in "conditions". A rudder is not intended to be the primary means for steering a kayak, it's intended to be an adjustable trim tab designed to assist a paddler keeping on course by allowing adjustments to counter opposing forces generated by wind and wave.
Given that both are mechanical devices they are subject to failures and breakdowns...that said I have rudders on two of my boats, one has seen seven years of service without problems, the other newer boat two years. Let's just say for the record that I do not baby my boats. However, skegs are simpler and have fewer component parts - less to go wrong!
In my experience the "bracing" issue attributed as a problem related to the sliding footpegs used in some rudder set ups is not a problem of the sliding braces per se, it's more related to improper foot peg set up and general poor boat fit (ie the cockpit fit is too loose). Regardless, as a previous poster stated the availability of "gas pedal" and "toe control" footpegs for rudder installation have rendered this issue moot.
If I were buying a new sea kayak, I'd most likely opt for a factory installed skeg if it were available. If I were modifying a skegless, rudderless boat, I (beacuse of my particular set of skills and tools) would opt for a rudder because that installation would be easier for me than a skeg installation.
As a side note for those of you with a "need for speed" rudders pretty much rule in the kayak racing world.
chpaton
Last edited by chpaton on Wed Oct 03, 2007 12:15 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Very few serious sea kayaks have neither a rudder nor a skeg. (Some might say that a kayak with a rudder is, by definition, not a serious sea kayak, but they'd be neglecting ocean racing boats, since racers have a good case for a rudder.)
Anyway, the point is well-taken that every ocean paddler should learn the skills needed to keep a boat on course without a skeg or rudder -- very useful and, in many situations, better than using a skeg. And what happens if your skeg breaks mid-trip? That said, skegs do work well in certain conditions, like a strong cross wind on a long trip, where you really will expend a lot more energy keeping the boat on course without the skeg deployed.
Kate -- as for your history busting Avocet skegs, consider getting the retrofit skeg kit. It has a heavier cable and a larger tube for it, and pretty much ends the issue of Avocet skeg cables kinking when you look at them cross-eyed. I know, as I've kinked a couple of Avocet cables in my day, but none since I started paddling one with the new cable and tube.
--David.
Anyway, the point is well-taken that every ocean paddler should learn the skills needed to keep a boat on course without a skeg or rudder -- very useful and, in many situations, better than using a skeg. And what happens if your skeg breaks mid-trip? That said, skegs do work well in certain conditions, like a strong cross wind on a long trip, where you really will expend a lot more energy keeping the boat on course without the skeg deployed.
Kate -- as for your history busting Avocet skegs, consider getting the retrofit skeg kit. It has a heavier cable and a larger tube for it, and pretty much ends the issue of Avocet skeg cables kinking when you look at them cross-eyed. I know, as I've kinked a couple of Avocet cables in my day, but none since I started paddling one with the new cable and tube.
--David.
Steve, you have asked a question that will generate a number of opinions, remember our answers are based on our individual experience.
I once had a participant join me in a workshop I was running at the East Coast Canoe and Kayak Festival. He arrived a little late because he had signed up for a workshop with Derek Hutchinson, who had told him he needed to feather his paddle to participate in his workshop. Derek went on, according to this participant, to say that you should always paddle with a feathered paddle, this came as a suprise to the participant, for he had been paddling for several years with a non feathered paddle. A perfectly logical approach since the paddle he bought was a one piece non feathered paddle. This participant had enjoyed paddling "incorrectly" for years, he wondered if he needed to get a new paddle. Steve Jobs once said "Don't be trapped by dogma - which is living with the results of other people's thinking". I love this quote.
Mark, who's opinion is based on a lot of time in various kayaks has some great thoughts on his choice of the rudder/skeg/none of the above question, his time spent in whitewater has really improved his boat control. Some of his opinions are echoed by Kate, who I understand is quite accomplished as well. I agree with their thoughts that a rudder is not a substitute for good technique and you will do yourself and others well, by learning how to control your boat without a rudder or a skeg. Here is where I might think differently. Having a rudder on your boat gives you the choice of using it or not. I have a couple (ok a few) boats and some have rudders and some don't. The boat I find myself in most of the time is a fifteen year old Necky Tesla, who's rudder works just fine and is reliable with regular maintenance. I hardly use it but will when I've had enough of the effects of quartering seas or correcting for strong current, I'll drop it in as fast as you can say "we dumped that tea in the harbor for a reason".
Just like a bicycle doesn't need gears in order to ride one or a car doesn't need power steering in order to turn, you can paddle a kayak without a rudder or skeg. Like most engineering, rudders, I believe have expanded the popularity of the sport and provide an opportunity for those who are learning a way to keep things enjoyable as they gain better technique.
Cgr has a great point too, rudder cables can make bracing a little squishy, Seaward makes a good "gas pedal" system.
I once had a participant join me in a workshop I was running at the East Coast Canoe and Kayak Festival. He arrived a little late because he had signed up for a workshop with Derek Hutchinson, who had told him he needed to feather his paddle to participate in his workshop. Derek went on, according to this participant, to say that you should always paddle with a feathered paddle, this came as a suprise to the participant, for he had been paddling for several years with a non feathered paddle. A perfectly logical approach since the paddle he bought was a one piece non feathered paddle. This participant had enjoyed paddling "incorrectly" for years, he wondered if he needed to get a new paddle. Steve Jobs once said "Don't be trapped by dogma - which is living with the results of other people's thinking". I love this quote.
Mark, who's opinion is based on a lot of time in various kayaks has some great thoughts on his choice of the rudder/skeg/none of the above question, his time spent in whitewater has really improved his boat control. Some of his opinions are echoed by Kate, who I understand is quite accomplished as well. I agree with their thoughts that a rudder is not a substitute for good technique and you will do yourself and others well, by learning how to control your boat without a rudder or a skeg. Here is where I might think differently. Having a rudder on your boat gives you the choice of using it or not. I have a couple (ok a few) boats and some have rudders and some don't. The boat I find myself in most of the time is a fifteen year old Necky Tesla, who's rudder works just fine and is reliable with regular maintenance. I hardly use it but will when I've had enough of the effects of quartering seas or correcting for strong current, I'll drop it in as fast as you can say "we dumped that tea in the harbor for a reason".
Just like a bicycle doesn't need gears in order to ride one or a car doesn't need power steering in order to turn, you can paddle a kayak without a rudder or skeg. Like most engineering, rudders, I believe have expanded the popularity of the sport and provide an opportunity for those who are learning a way to keep things enjoyable as they gain better technique.
Cgr has a great point too, rudder cables can make bracing a little squishy, Seaward makes a good "gas pedal" system.
"Adventure is worthwhile in itself." - Amelia Earhart
djlewis wrote:Kate -- as for your history busting Avocet skegs, consider getting the retrofit skeg kit. It has a heavier cable and a larger tube for it, and pretty much ends the issue of Avocet skeg cables kinking when you look at them cross-eyed. I know, as I've kinked a couple of Avocet cables in my day, but none since I started paddling one with the new cable and tube.
--David.
I will look into this! Where did you get one? Did you put it in yourself?
And for the record, I do prefer to have a functioning skeg. I almost never need it, but when I do need it, it makes life a lot easier. I've had a few days when I cursed at myself for not having fixed that kinked skeg, as I corrected the boat's direction again and again and again in unfavorable wind/current.
NK
noseykate wrote:djlewis wrote:Kate -- as for your history busting Avocet skegs, consider getting the retrofit skeg kit. It has a heavier cable and a larger tube for it, and pretty much ends the issue of Avocet skeg cables kinking when you look at them cross-eyed. I know, as I've kinked a couple of Avocet cables in my day, but none since I started paddling one with the new cable and tube.
--David.
I will look into this! Where did you get one? Did you put it in yourself?
And for the record, I do prefer to have a functioning skeg. I almost never need it, but when I do need it, it makes life a lot easier. I've had a few days when I cursed at myself for not having fixed that kinked skeg, as I corrected the boat's direction again and again and again in unfavorable wind/current.
NK
Really? I would never have guessed
Phil
---
P&H Cetus MV, black over white with red tape
Necky Jive, Orange swirly things
P&H Cetus MV, black over white with red tape
Necky Jive, Orange swirly things
To be serious now, the gammut of the skeg/rudder nothing discussion has been well covered above. One thing to be aware of is that some older boats (and maybe newer ones that I'm unaware of) that were built with rudders turn like crap in any sort of conditions withor without the rudder. I was on a guided course in woods hole last year where in addition to the tide induced currents, we had a steady 18-20+ knots of wind. One of the other class participants had an older (current designs?, not sure) boat with a rudder and between the steep chop and the wind he really had little boat control. At one point we figured he might be off to Nantucket if not Ireland. He managed, but spent so much effort trying to follow the group he had little chance to enjoy and learn from the conditions.
Phil
Phil
---
P&H Cetus MV, black over white with red tape
Necky Jive, Orange swirly things
P&H Cetus MV, black over white with red tape
Necky Jive, Orange swirly things
prefer skegs
I have only been kayaking for one season but started in a light touring boat with a rudder (Cayuga 145). Took it on plenty of day trips in the ocean. I thought it was great at first especially in rougher conditions but after a half dozen trips and a rescue class which required me to get onto my stern with the rudder cables and rudder I really wished I didn't have one. First off, I tended to overuse the rudder rather than use more corrective strokes or attempt to carve. That was at first but as I got more experiance I began to not rely on the rudder and several months later simply used it as a skeg. Meaning I would just drop it straight down and not use it to steer or offset currents or wind at all. So as my skill got better I simply didn't need it and it became more of a hindrance. First problem was that no matter how tight I adjusted the foot pedals they felt always spongy. Once you get comfortable with carving turns and really need to brace you waste a lot of energy pushing on the spongy pedals and I never really felt that secure. Second problem was practicing re entries. I always had to watch out for the rudder and the cables when cowboying the stern. Not a huge deal but under really bad conditions it could make a vad situation more difficult. Lastly I really didn't care for the looks of the rudder. I know that might sound silly but I really liked the sleek rudderless British boat designs. Looked more minimalistic and traditional to me. The only question that was still lingering was whether I would miss the rudder in rough conditions.
Well towards the end of the summer I decided to look for a new boat preferably without a rudder but with a skeg which I had never even tried. I was attracted to the P&H RM Capellas because they seemed to be the most serious of the plastic sea kayaks and they also were a true British kayak. They fit me really well too at 210lbs and 6ft tall. But I luckily stumbled upon a used P&H Quest carbon fiber in incredible condition for a little more money. I took it out for an hour or so on the Charles and couldn't believe how good it felt to have solid footbraces. It was amazingly easy to control the boat when you could lock yourself in with your leg muscles when needed. The second thing that I noticed was that the skeg control was way easier to operate than the pull cable on a rudder. Sometimes that rudder required quite a bit of effort to pull up or even put down. Most skeg controls are just thick sliding wires which easily slide back and forth with minimal effort. Also depending on the current you do gain a bit of directional control from skegs. Part way down tends to make you turn one direction and full way down tends to make you turn the other direction. Halfway down seems to be the magic point for straight tracking. This does depend on the currents though since you are simply increasing or decreasing the pressure on the stern in relation to the pressure on the bow. But you can't expect the corrective ability of cranking a rudder 45 plus degrees out of a skeg. The skeg definitely is not meant for turning but then again neither is the rudder in most cases. But I had developed some carving and corrective strokes already and the transition to the skeg was easier than I thought it would be. I was sold on the skeg and bought the boat. Now my wife wants to get rid of her ruddered boat as well. She almost never uses it and also hates the spongy foot pedal feeling especially after she took the Quest out for a ride.
Hope this helps
Mike
Well towards the end of the summer I decided to look for a new boat preferably without a rudder but with a skeg which I had never even tried. I was attracted to the P&H RM Capellas because they seemed to be the most serious of the plastic sea kayaks and they also were a true British kayak. They fit me really well too at 210lbs and 6ft tall. But I luckily stumbled upon a used P&H Quest carbon fiber in incredible condition for a little more money. I took it out for an hour or so on the Charles and couldn't believe how good it felt to have solid footbraces. It was amazingly easy to control the boat when you could lock yourself in with your leg muscles when needed. The second thing that I noticed was that the skeg control was way easier to operate than the pull cable on a rudder. Sometimes that rudder required quite a bit of effort to pull up or even put down. Most skeg controls are just thick sliding wires which easily slide back and forth with minimal effort. Also depending on the current you do gain a bit of directional control from skegs. Part way down tends to make you turn one direction and full way down tends to make you turn the other direction. Halfway down seems to be the magic point for straight tracking. This does depend on the currents though since you are simply increasing or decreasing the pressure on the stern in relation to the pressure on the bow. But you can't expect the corrective ability of cranking a rudder 45 plus degrees out of a skeg. The skeg definitely is not meant for turning but then again neither is the rudder in most cases. But I had developed some carving and corrective strokes already and the transition to the skeg was easier than I thought it would be. I was sold on the skeg and bought the boat. Now my wife wants to get rid of her ruddered boat as well. She almost never uses it and also hates the spongy foot pedal feeling especially after she took the Quest out for a ride.
Hope this helps
Mike
P&H Quest Yellow/White
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Johnysmoke
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I've paddled both a little bit. I prefer a boat with a skeg for playing, as I have yet to take one on any kind of a serious trip, so I couldn't really tell you my experiences traveling serious miles with a skegged boat. I do prefer the simplicity of a skeg, although I have yet to run into any kinked wire issues with my boats (knocks on wood.)
However, paddling a fully loaded touring boat, with lots of weight, a rudder is great, because you don't have to work as hard to make corrections. Just use the rudder, although I don't usually deploy the rudder until conditions pick up. Saves energy over the long run, especially as days turn into weeks.
I'm sure after I get a few miles on my new boat, which has a skeg, loaded with gear and what not, I'll feel just as comfortable. Hopefully. I think as long as a boat fits well, and is comfortable, its fun to paddle...
However, paddling a fully loaded touring boat, with lots of weight, a rudder is great, because you don't have to work as hard to make corrections. Just use the rudder, although I don't usually deploy the rudder until conditions pick up. Saves energy over the long run, especially as days turn into weeks.
I'm sure after I get a few miles on my new boat, which has a skeg, loaded with gear and what not, I'll feel just as comfortable. Hopefully. I think as long as a boat fits well, and is comfortable, its fun to paddle...
Doug said...
> ... what is a serious sea kayak? Don't let my Tesla (20,000 +or- miles) know its not serious because it has a rudder.
But what I said was...
> Some might say that a kayak with a rudder is, by definition, not a serious sea kayak...
All I know is that the most accomplished and active sea kayakers I know -- excluding racers -- use boats with skegs and not boats with rudders. here are the arguments I know of against rudders...
* a rudder can interfere with optimal use of footpegs in propulsion, which is pretty important for an efficient forward stroke (there are newer rudder systems which claim to overcome this factor)
* a rudder is too tempting to use (in fact, is really intended) for turning rather than simple directional correction against weathercocking, and thus can inhibit development of good turning skills.
* a rudder statically deployed against weathercocking slows the boat down more than a deployed skeg (I think)
* a rudder is mechanically more complex than even the fanciest skeg, and thus prone to failure and difficult to repair in the field. Since it can fail, you gotta know how to turn without a rudder, and if you haven't practiced much, then... whoops. (A similar thing is true of skegs with respect to weathercocking, which is why most coaches advise practicing a lot in wind without deploying the skeg.)
* a rudder can hurt another paddler or boat in close quarters, for example during a rescue
* they are u-g-l-y (kidding, mostly)
* a rudder confers no particular advantage over a skeg in correcting for weathercocking, so all these minuses are not balanced by plusses
Racing is an exception. In the interests of speed, all aesthetic and skill-based arguments get tossed overboard. Since racing boats tend to be longer than touring models, to get more speed, they are harder to turn than touring boats, especially into or across the wind. So a rudder is actually a more efficient way to turn, speedwise. I don't know how racers overcome the issue of sub-optimal footpegs -- do surfskis have separate rudder controls?
My $00.03. --David.
> ... what is a serious sea kayak? Don't let my Tesla (20,000 +or- miles) know its not serious because it has a rudder.
But what I said was...
> Some might say that a kayak with a rudder is, by definition, not a serious sea kayak...
All I know is that the most accomplished and active sea kayakers I know -- excluding racers -- use boats with skegs and not boats with rudders. here are the arguments I know of against rudders...
* a rudder can interfere with optimal use of footpegs in propulsion, which is pretty important for an efficient forward stroke (there are newer rudder systems which claim to overcome this factor)
* a rudder is too tempting to use (in fact, is really intended) for turning rather than simple directional correction against weathercocking, and thus can inhibit development of good turning skills.
* a rudder statically deployed against weathercocking slows the boat down more than a deployed skeg (I think)
* a rudder is mechanically more complex than even the fanciest skeg, and thus prone to failure and difficult to repair in the field. Since it can fail, you gotta know how to turn without a rudder, and if you haven't practiced much, then... whoops. (A similar thing is true of skegs with respect to weathercocking, which is why most coaches advise practicing a lot in wind without deploying the skeg.)
* a rudder can hurt another paddler or boat in close quarters, for example during a rescue
* they are u-g-l-y (kidding, mostly)
* a rudder confers no particular advantage over a skeg in correcting for weathercocking, so all these minuses are not balanced by plusses
Racing is an exception. In the interests of speed, all aesthetic and skill-based arguments get tossed overboard. Since racing boats tend to be longer than touring models, to get more speed, they are harder to turn than touring boats, especially into or across the wind. So a rudder is actually a more efficient way to turn, speedwise. I don't know how racers overcome the issue of sub-optimal footpegs -- do surfskis have separate rudder controls?
My $00.03. --David.
Kate -- call the Valley distributor, which happens to be part of The Kayak Centre. It's http://www.grokayaks.com/ -- Great River Outfitters, 401.667.2670. I haven't installed one, but Scott Camlin has.noseykate wrote:I will look into this! Where did you get one? Did you put it in yourself?djlewis wrote:Kate -- as for your history busting Avocet skegs, consider getting the retrofit skeg kit. It has a heavier cable and a larger tube for it, and pretty much ends the issue of Avocet skeg cables kinking when you look at them cross-eyed. I know, as I've kinked a couple of Avocet cables in my day, but none since I started paddling one with the new cable and tube.
NK
--David.
O.K. all you purists out there, raise your hand if you don't like rudders, O.K. now keep them up if you own a GPS, oh, not many hands went down. How many can say they are efficient paddling in fog with current without the use of a GPS, oh now we see a lot of hands going down. My point is this, there are multiple solutions and tools available out there. Inovation brings us diversity and choices, none of which are a substitute for skill and experience. When we fall into the human trap of defining what is "accomplished" or what do the "experts" use, we narrow opportunities, it smacks of elitism. Why I like to paddle with the Wild Turkeys and view their web-site is their approach, originally a bunch of mostly beginners who took it upon themselves to gain experience and knowledge of the sport. They realized that safety was an important part of that process. They have consistantly appealed to a wide range of enthusiasts from beginners to well seasoned, crotchety old salts. Many have donated tons of their time and experience to help others along.Their approach has been inclusive and they have expressed concerns of getting too elitist. What fun. I dont pretend to be an expert in anything, I like Ken Fink's description of himself, he calls himself "a serious student of kayaking". I have been around the sport for a while and have a few miles under some boats including ruddered, skegged and non r/s and to me, they all work just fine, for me, the boat isn't close to being the most important thing. I think, that despite what boat designers would argue, kayaks are all about the same, they are wide in the middle and narrow at the ends and most anybody who is skilled, after spending time in any boat, could make the thing perform well.
I know people have legitimate reasons for having strong preferences and it makes sense to share them, I would just suggest we speak from our own experience and not spit out the limiting beta associated with the "experts". I get to paddle four or five months a year on extended expeditions with folks who have 300+ weeks in the field and none of us would be so brazen as to call ourselves "experts" or "accomplished". There is still so much to learn about the sea and paddling.
I know people have legitimate reasons for having strong preferences and it makes sense to share them, I would just suggest we speak from our own experience and not spit out the limiting beta associated with the "experts". I get to paddle four or five months a year on extended expeditions with folks who have 300+ weeks in the field and none of us would be so brazen as to call ourselves "experts" or "accomplished". There is still so much to learn about the sea and paddling.
"Adventure is worthwhile in itself." - Amelia Earhart
djlewis wrote:
* a rudder can interfere with optimal use of footpegs in propulsion, which is pretty important for an efficient forward stroke (there are newer rudder systems which claim to overcome this factor)
* a rudder is too tempting to use (in fact, is really intended) for turning rather than simple directional correction against weathercocking, and thus can inhibit development of good turning skills.
* a rudder statically deployed against weathercocking slows the boat down more than a deployed skeg (I think)
* a rudder confers no particular advantage over a skeg in correcting for weathercocking, so all these minuses are not balanced by plusses
My $00.03. --David.
And these observations are from your personal experience with ruddered boats?
chpaton
I had to check the logo on the top of the page. I thought I was in the wrong website. 
I have limited experience with both. I would say that I am an advanced beginner. I just moved to a skegged Tempest from a ruddered Storm (Current Designs). I very rarely used the rudder for turning, I used it mostly for weathercocking. It did come in handy fully loaded in Maine. I did use it to steer there a few times.
I also wasn't a big fan of the mushy pedals. The gas pedal style would be much better for edging and bracing. I also found it did get in the way a bit as well, in and out of the water.
I changed boats due to fit and performance. The rudder/skeg was down on the list of reasons.
I have limited experience with both. I would say that I am an advanced beginner. I just moved to a skegged Tempest from a ruddered Storm (Current Designs). I very rarely used the rudder for turning, I used it mostly for weathercocking. It did come in handy fully loaded in Maine. I did use it to steer there a few times.
I also wasn't a big fan of the mushy pedals. The gas pedal style would be much better for edging and bracing. I also found it did get in the way a bit as well, in and out of the water.
I changed boats due to fit and performance. The rudder/skeg was down on the list of reasons.
Last edited by Chip on Thu Oct 04, 2007 11:57 am, edited 1 time in total.
Current Designs Solstice GTS
Placid Boatworks Rapidfire
Placid Boatworks Rapidfire
I'm not seeing any intentional malice in these posts, only a few misunderstandings. Kayakstew asked for opinions and being human, we have 'em! No harm done, just a friendly discussion with no one being adamant that his or her opinions are the only right ones. Out on the water, all this trivial fracas fades away. So maybe we could put this energy to better use planning trips for the weekend? Maybe swap boats so we can all try rudders and skegs?!
gobble gobble....
gobble gobble....
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Johnysmoke
- Posts: 738
- Joined: Tue May 09, 2006 4:55 pm
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djlewis wrote:All I know is that the most accomplished and active sea kayakers I know -- excluding racers -- use boats with skegs and not boats with rudders.
I hope these guys don't know that...
http://www.adventurephilosophy.com/expeditions-subnav/south-georgia-summary/
I don't know why, but message boards seem prone to this kind of thing. Folks get themselves kinda worked up, when they wouldn't if it was a face-to-face conversation.
I'm sure there's a place for rudders - people who I paddle with rarely have them, so that's already an inbuilt bias on my part. I got a short boat for my 12 year old - it's about 12 ft. long, is rotomold and has a rudder. I've only been teaching her steering strokes because I wouldn't even know how to give instructions on using the rudder, so it's always in it's parked position.
I'm sure there's a place for rudders - people who I paddle with rarely have them, so that's already an inbuilt bias on my part. I got a short boat for my 12 year old - it's about 12 ft. long, is rotomold and has a rudder. I've only been teaching her steering strokes because I wouldn't even know how to give instructions on using the rudder, so it's always in it's parked position.
Possunt quia posse viderunt. Virgil Book V, Aeneid. (They can because they think they can)
Politics, religion, and rudders & skegs . . . not fit for polite conversation.
It seems a lot like the "What boat should I buy?" question. There are a lot of very experienced paddlers here, (more experienced than me,) who won't agree. Seems like the best advice would be to try them out and see what you like best yourself. I've always paddled with a skeg, (which I rarely deploy,) and on those occasions I have tried a rudder I didn't like it at all. All the problems I've had with rudders have been enumerated here already. I'm sure I would get used to it if I used a rudder enough. I just have no interest in getting a different boat, so I'm happy.
Different strokes . . . (sorry.)
It seems a lot like the "What boat should I buy?" question. There are a lot of very experienced paddlers here, (more experienced than me,) who won't agree. Seems like the best advice would be to try them out and see what you like best yourself. I've always paddled with a skeg, (which I rarely deploy,) and on those occasions I have tried a rudder I didn't like it at all. All the problems I've had with rudders have been enumerated here already. I'm sure I would get used to it if I used a rudder enough. I just have no interest in getting a different boat, so I'm happy.
Different strokes . . . (sorry.)
I have a rudder on my 18 foot Boreal Designs Saguenay. It's a big long boat that can carry a lot, but loaded it is far far easier to turn with the rudder. Most of the time, though, the rudder is out of the water.
I would say though, that a rudder is a terrible idea for a beginning paddler. Mushy footpegs mean that you don't learn to move the boat from your points of contact, and steering with a rudder is a crutch that prevents really nailing your corrective strokes when you're just starting out. You should stow your rudder for the first six months of paddling . . .
I would say though, that a rudder is a terrible idea for a beginning paddler. Mushy footpegs mean that you don't learn to move the boat from your points of contact, and steering with a rudder is a crutch that prevents really nailing your corrective strokes when you're just starting out. You should stow your rudder for the first six months of paddling . . .
Here are a couple of pieces of information about both rudders and skegs that kayakstew might find helpful.
Skeg:
http://www.atlantickayaktours.com/pages/expertcenter/equipment/skeg/Skeg-1.shtml
Rudders:
http://www.sit-on-topkayaking.com/Articles/Instruction/RudderUse.html
Skeg:
http://www.atlantickayaktours.com/pages/expertcenter/equipment/skeg/Skeg-1.shtml
Rudders:
http://www.sit-on-topkayaking.com/Articles/Instruction/RudderUse.html
P&H Quest LV - Yellow/white/blue
Johnysmoke wrote:djlewis wrote:All I know is that the most accomplished and active sea kayakers I know -- excluding racers -- use boats with skegs and not boats with rudders.
I hope these guys don't know that...
http://www.adventurephilosophy.com/expeditions-subnav/south-georgia-summary/
in contrast, these guys do a little travelling (including S. Georgia Island) with commercially available skegged rudderless boats.
As said above, tea or coffee; to each their own.
Phil
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P&H Cetus MV, black over white with red tape
Necky Jive, Orange swirly things
P&H Cetus MV, black over white with red tape
Necky Jive, Orange swirly things
Doug wrote:.....
Hats off to those putting perspective on things, we did get into a little navel gazing there.
Doug-
Dont think I've met you, but I like you based on that photo. Made my day! If you dont mind, I'll keep a copy for future use!
Phil
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P&H Cetus MV, black over white with red tape
Necky Jive, Orange swirly things
P&H Cetus MV, black over white with red tape
Necky Jive, Orange swirly things
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kayakerjnj
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- Location: Randolph MA
